First life cleric build

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First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:31 pm

**EDIT- Continued to do more research after I posted this which has greatly altered my opinions. If you read this before this edit, just know that I've made alot of changes on preferences.

You guys have been amazing in the past with helping me figure out what playstyle I'd want to play for a specific class and how best to build it. I've done some reading online, most of which is pre U14 but even if it was up to date I trust you guys more than anyone else. As I usually do, I'll list the things I'd like the character to be able to do in order of importance. I'll also give a general idea of how I see myself playing the toon if I could. Please feel free to debunk any information I might have picked up from the forums if it's BS and ask any questions about stuff I might not have thought of bringing up. Here goes....

I want a cleric that heals very well first and foremost. Having said that I don't want to heal so well that I am unable to do anything else. I do find myself soloing/duoing about 70% of the time so being able to solo is important to me. I would very much like to be able to solo more difficult bosses like ADQ possibly as well. (pipe dream?) From what I've read, the clonk does this vary well. Sadly, there seemed to be a massive variety of clonks from heavy str clonks who melee alot, to caster clonks who melee very little. It appeared the 2 choices were 18/2 and 17/3. The 17/3 had the pros of monk finishers for their buffs, one of which would reduce my SP usage by 25% which could really help my SP pool. The cons of 17/3 seemed to be 100 less SP and -1 to spell DCs. I also read that getting DCs high enough to work well in Epic hard quests was extremely difficult for a first lifer. If this is the case, then I'd like to not worry about my DCs and find other ways to do damage.

Other concerns I have that I didn't mention in the above paragraph are.... Can I reach a quality AC as a clonk compared to a full plate wearing cleric with shield? AC isn't a deal breaker for me, but I love not being hit on my monk and find it's not that difficult to get a good AC on a pure monk. I have read that some epic level clerics in the "unyielding sentinel" destiny tree are reaching 100AC. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a clonk vs 1hnd shield cleric including AC difference?


It will be a 32pt build and I have enough plat now to buy any +2 tomes I'd need. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.

*EDIT- I forgot to mention I really like the burst healing ability and would love to be able to do that.


Last edited by Raucous on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:06 pm

ROFL. I think I'll be the first to respond to my own post. After doing some more reading, it sounds like the only damage spells that don't need a DC are DP and BB. Also, if I want to have plenty of SP for healing, then I shouldn't be wasting it on alot dps spells. After taking these into account, then I think I would prefer to have a play style that uses BB for trash and DP for bosses while being able to melee effectively without reducing my ability to heal and use BB/DP. I'm all ears for other options that I'm not aware of.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by simplesimon79 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:10 pm

BB has a reflex save for half. Evasion mobs suck.

Idk. I'm still running my first time cleric and really think melee damage is the way to go. I don't feel they have enough sp to spam damage spells and keep healing up in a group. Course I used my free LR to be a more caster cleric so I'm a bit stuck with it for awhile.

Plus when your up there meleeing all the other melees are getting your aura and bursts.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:35 pm

Thx Simon. The more I'm reading the more I'm thinking you are right. Now the question becomes, clonk or 1hnd+shld cleric?

I think I'm going to edit my initial post since my mind has changed quite abit since I posted it.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by simplesimon79 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:15 pm

Hopefully kal catches your post cause he would have lots of info on clonks. I'm actually going to be swaying towards twohanders. Now I have lvl 9 spells I'm thinking of taking a lvl of fighter for the weapon proficancys and bonus feat. With divine power running it covers a. +6 item and full baby. I still my slot a item at some point.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Demogarose on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:57 pm

while i know next to nothing about clonks, i DO know a fair bit about "Battle Clerics"

that is to say, a cleric that melees in addition to healing/casting

there are several ways to build one, that i'll lay out for you briefly:

19/1 Cleric/Fighter: gets you full Martial Weapon profs, Tower Shields, some weak FTR enhancements (Haste Boost is a REALLY good one), an extra Feat, and you only lose 1 level for SP and Spell Pen purposes (DCs are unaffected by Class levels)

18/2 Cleric: all the same stuff a 19/1 gets, but 2 extra feats instead of one

20 Cleric Helf with FTR Dilly: the best of both worlds IMO. you sacrifice a feat or 2 for FULL casting ability while STILL being able to melee. You also get access to some limited FTR enhancements as well (notably Armor Mastery, which increases MDB on armor)




if you'd like, i could whip up a build

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:18 am

Thx for the info Ost. I'll do some research on Wiki regarding that armor mastery and see what other ftr enhancements you get from either 1 level of ftr or ftr dilly. If I were trying to maximize melee dps I'd probably want to go rog dilly with 1 ftr level, but then again, being able to go full 20 is worth checking out. Don't work up a build yet. I'd like to hear from Kal regarding Clonks and compare the two before I pick one. I don't want anyone wasting time on builds if I'm not going to use that particular style.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Gildus on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:00 am

Clonks are great, Kal is certainly the resident expert, so he'll probably have some good advice if you go that way. the 18/2 split is more popular, but with you're monk experience you might get more milage that most do out of a 17/3.

The real question is more whether you want to play something with some skill similarity to your monk (it'll definitely help), or try something completely different.

I think there probably is a new opening for non-clonk battle clerics after the changes to AC and PRR. Heavy armor provides a lot of nice protection now. I still think clonks are going bring more to the table (stunning fist being being what really pulls them ahead, followed by stances and attack speed), but it's an option if you wanted to go 20 cleric (if you're going to splash I have a hard time seeing a fighter splash beat a monk splash).

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:41 am

Ya, Gildus. The playstyle thing was initially my concern. I wanted to play somthing different. I wasn't sure how happy I'd be running around as a different version of a monk. I guess in the end I do love playing monk, and it also would probably make me enjoy healing more. Most people find playing a healer boring, but when you are playing monk so much, healing will likely come as a welcome variety. If all the choices were equal I'd probably choose to play a different style than monk, but being more of a power gamer min/maxer type, I'd rather pick the best option available. Thx for the advice

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Kalener on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:32 am

Ugh... DSL went out Thursday and only got it back now. Not too much confidence at it staying (they also had it fixed yesterday for about an hour), but hopefully it will......

This is somewhat scattershot, but should answer all the questions in this thread at some point.....

All divines can heal, unless you're a FVS that chooses not to take those spells. However, doing so will just annoy people, as there are certain expectations with a divine icon. There are certain feats you'll want to ensure this: Quicken, Maximize, Empower Healing. Not taking those would be silly though, with the possible exception of a FvS skipping Empower Healing. Under old rules that was an option, but I'd recommend against that now. You need EH to keep your heal numbers up since Spell Power is halved with Heal.

In both cases, you have to play somewhat differently when grouped as you do when solo. A melee divine will change their style somewhat less, due to the SP issues mentioned. But a caster divine can still toss a few good spells while grouping. Instakill an enemy caster, cometfall a dangerous pack of melees, etc. You have to pay some attention to not running out of SPs, but other than in raid situations, that's usually not that hard. Honestly, a stack of heal scrolls is all the healing you need for most quests. If you make sure to have a 500 SP buffer or so in case you need to start throwing some masses, you can spend most of the rest of that on spells without too much problem. The bigger change while grouped is simply an attention thing. The act of paying some attention to the red bars means you're paying that much less to everything else, and that's fine. If you ever see Kalener swinging into empty space.... this is why. I'm holding down the attack button, but at that moment actually contemplating healing issues....

Soloing things like DQ is really not a function of build, other than certain feats you'll have anyway (quicken, maximise) and raw HPs. Gear does matter.... with a Torc and such you can do it at level, but a lvl 20 divine can probably handle DQ with nothing more than 100K worth of AH gear. It can be difficult from a timing perspective though. You need to learn some of her swing patterns, and know when to heal to avoid the particularly devastating triple swing while you're not blocking. The clonk part adds nothing for beating the DQ, and in fact the first time I beat elite on Kal's first life, I actually gave up evasion in order to wear the epic cove armor for that temp HP proc.

Melee wise, there are a variety of good options. I'd either choose FvS20 THF build, or a evasion TWF build. A FvS can get away with an evasion THF if you really want, but FvS build gets +5 ref saves over the same build as a cleric. A shield is not an option for a true melee cleric, as your DPS with be pathetic. Its nice for a caster cleric though, who may want to melee on occasion with a good debuffer weapon (or possibly paralyzer, or whatever).

THF builds will either want to splash a couple of fighter levels for feats, or learn to twitch. Your best bet is either learn to twitch or use 3 full feats for THF feats. The feats will obviously do greater DPS, but while its huge compared to a THF that stands still, its actually not that huge compared to a twicher (Twitchers have, IIRC, a 15-20% attack speed increase.... its that significant). I think the best THF builds are actually FvS 20s, as they can get the capstone CLW and DR, and by using twitch fighting manage the feats. (Twitching is -4 tohit, but that's less of a problem than it used to be.)

True max DPS will be a TWFer with rogue dilly. That's mainly why I think the best THF builds are FvS 20, since the FvS capstone brings so much to the table it makes the loss of DPS worthwhile. Unfortunately Cleric 20 just doesn't have the same punch.

With a TWF build, you can opt to do what I do, and go full monk style with Stunning Fist. DPS between Scimitars and Fists is pretty comparable, assuming you have a ToD ring, can break DR, etc. Due to this, a less geared clonk will do less damage than a Scim build, but as long as you heal people that doesn't matter too much. You're main party role is keeping others up, the DPS is just bonus. And Stunning Fist is probably more useful to most parties than the extra DPS anyway. But... there is a big "feel" difference between armed TWF and handwraps. Just go whichever route you want your toon to be.

AC isn't that big of a deal. While you're right, a clonk will somewhat suffer (more due to PRR than AC), the evasion will make up for it survivability wise.

If you do go clonk style, I don't recommend that 3rd lvl of monk. It used to be nice when the Healing curse scaled with player level, but now that's sort of lousy. You're right about the spell discount one still being useful, but other than right before buffing, its crazy hard to use. The times when you really want to cast spells you either don't have the time, or don't have the Ki to be worrying about your finishers.


In the past... I'd never recommend going caster & melee together, at least not without completionist. However.... the new rules have changed the value of tohit, making a melee wis-based cleric a possibility that never used to exist. Toss in the 2 more feats with the new lvl cap.... and I can actually fit Heighten and one more caster feat (ideally PL: Wiz) into a melee clonk build. I don't recommend you trying that for no reason than play skill. Healing and melee (or casting) at the same time is complicated enough. Learn that, and then maybe... just maybe... try all 3 on a future life. I just might do so on Kal... but unfortunately you can't really do a caster FvSonk due to the lack of spell slots. Maybe one of these days I'll TR again and try for the Triple Threat Divine..... There are still many issues with that, mainly Spell Pen and the figuring out how to gear up. I'm not going to worry about that for a while... So I still don't really recommend it per se... but it is much more tempting than it used to be. So ignore this paragraph for now, but feel free to tuck it in the back of your brain for after you feel you've got the melee/heal thing down as a possible new challenge. Just a thought that's been kicking around my head for a bit now....

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Raucous on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:38 am

Thx for the advice Kal. I think I will go with the clonk for a first time healer. As much as I'd like to do more I think I'll try and focus on support plus stunning mobs for the DPS to beat down faster.

I wasn't sure what you meant when you started talking about scimitars though. Is there a Clonk build where you use scimitars, or was this simply talking about a cleric twf build using scims that isn't a clonk? The one concern I do have going with wraps is the limited amount of DR breaking wraps. I've never had to worry about it as a light monk so I have no metalline wraps at all which I will need for a clonk.

Since I know I'm going Clonk, I'd love to get some help with a specific build. Also, I know you recommended NOT taking the 3rd monk level because it didn't give me much, but on the other side, what am I gaining by only going 2 monk? If there isn't alot of differences I might be interested in going the 3 monk just for the ability to try using stances and finishers.

I was thinking of going Helf+rog dilly for the DPS bonus in groups and against stunned mobs while solo. I was thinking of the following stat distribution.

Str 14

Dex 15

Con 14

Int 8

Wis 16

Cha 10

Will I want higher Cha for Divine might? I'll obviously want as high of a wisdom as I can for stunning fist but besides that and AC bonus, what other benefit do I have of going with a higher wisdom than I need to cast 9th level spells?

Obviously, Str is going to help me with to hit which isn't super important but add to that the damage and I don't know if I want that to go up as well. I know I need a +2 tome for ITWF and GTWF and I'll want one for Str, con and wisdom as well since they are all important stats. Do I need tomes for Int? I'll obvioulsy know the answer for Cha if I'm using alot of turns for burst healing assuming I understand that ability correctly.

I definitely need help in the enhancement department as what is best for healing is completely foreign to me.

*EDIT- One more thing I wanted to know if it was worth taking into account was the new weapons out there. Particularly the new shortsword that is pure light damage. I think it's called Star of Day, or one of those. There are a couple of new weapons out there that make current handwrap selection look like toys.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Hippocratic Oaf on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:53 am

I echo Kal on everything. In fact his last paragraph makes me wonder if I should go back to DrHenry and play him more, I haven't done him much since the update save raid healer, and he is on paper the "triple threat" build Kal is talking about. I say on paper because, exactly as Kal said, it's very difficult to do all three, especially at once. In fact due to gear-switching I believe to be truly effective at all three at the same time is nigh-impossible (without completionist.)

At any rate I've enjoyed trying immensely (even before the update,) but I did always have trouble with Spell Pen and to a lesser extent spell DC. I'm really looking forward to DrHenry's third life, where I think I'll try out Kal's handwraps suggestion, just because I think I like them more than scimmy's. Plus it'll give me a chance to use some Air Alch wraps with Water as the second, so I can stop using the gs kama when casting that gives me +3 Exceptional Wis, and just rely on the alch wraps + ToD ring with a +1 Wis.

I think you can handle two of them pretty well though. Just have to pick which two and stick with it.

Sidenote to Kal: So you want to twitch *or* take the THF feats? I've been doing both this whole time...have I been nerfing myself on DrJonas in dps mode?

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:31 am

Raucous wrote:
*EDIT- One more thing I wanted to know if it was worth taking into account was the new weapons out there. Particularly the new shortsword that is pure light damage. I think it's called Star of Day, or one of those. There are a couple of new weapons out there that make current handwrap selection look like toys.

The weapon called "Star of Day", available from Clerics of Amaunator commendations, is not the one you want. The one you want is "Celestia, Brightest Star of Day". It's raid loot, from the "Caught in the Web" raid. Much like the caster staff and the bastard sword from that raid, it is named after a character from My Little Pony:



It is a truly manly weapon, or so I'm told. Wink

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:33 am

Hippocratic Oaf wrote:Sidenote to Kal: So you want to twitch *or* take the THF feats? I've been doing both this whole time...have I been nerfing myself on DrJonas in dps mode?

I was under the impression that you don't get glancing blows while twitching, making the feats kinda pointless. Well, unless you switch back and forth a lot.

Also, most new people probably have no idea just what twitching IS, so maybe that should go in a guide somewhere... Wink

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:51 am

Kalener wrote:In the past... I'd never recommend going caster & melee together, at least not without completionist. However.... the new rules have changed the value of tohit, making a melee wis-based cleric a possibility that never used to exist.

Shameless plug:

If you really want to be both a caster and a melee character, perhaps I could interest you in some free cocaine the Druid class? It's not merely viable, it's actually awesome. Both Yhvain and Tienay have fairly similar builds, and it seems to work like a charm.

Basically: pure human druid, max out your wisdom, take enough dex for all the TWF feats (and not one point more), spend everything you have left on con, dump str/int/cha. Raise Wisdom on level-ups. Take a Toughness feat, all the TWF feats (you don't need Oversized TWF though, you'll hit just fine without it), IC Slash (Flameblades don't actually deal slashing damage, but still benefit from that feat), some metamagic feats (Maximize, Empower and Quicken primarily - Heighten is entirely optional), and (at least if you have access to Epic Destinies) Spell Focus: Evocation. Since Wisdom affects both your spell points, spell DCs and your +hit/+damage with flame blades, you'll be great at both melee and casting!

So great, in fact, that the clerics will probably whine about being forced to get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich focus on healing to get raid spots.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Kalener on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:52 am

Going through points in order.....

-A Scimitar build will look just like a Handwrap build, but you'd swap Stunning Fist for Improved Crit: Slash. By going Undying Court (available to Helves) you get proficiency and slightly bonuses. Since you aren't fighting fully centered, you could also opt to go with Light Armor for some PRR instead of Wis bonus to AC. Probably best as a FvS, as you'd gain extra bonuses to Scimitars, and you could completely dump Wis to 8.

-Monk 3: You get stances with Monk 1, as well as some finishers. What you gain with Monk 3 is the Dark / Light stuff, so you'd gain the light finishers. The issue with them is when you are casting, you aren't gaining Ki. So in situations where the SP discount would be most useful, its nearly impossible to use. Plus, you lose C18 which gives you spell slots, SP, and a level on all your spells. (Some, like Shield of Faith, have significant cutoffs at 18.) It also could be a problem come enhancement pass (or... it might not. who knows). I think if you were to splash a 3rd lvl, Fighter or Wizard would probably have more value than monk.

-Those stats are OK. I'd go with 10 int, 8 cha, but I like UMD. Divine Might totally sucks... the very first Kal build had it. It just doesn't last long enough, and your stats have to get too warped for it to be that good. In the past I'd suggest swapping Str and Wis, and putting all level ups into Wis.... now I'm less sure. Either way you go is more or less OK. Tomes wise.... you'll want all of them. A build like this uses every stat.

-Enhancements are too hard. Everything for your PrE, then at least lvl 3 of the Heal Spellpower boost, Light Spellpower boost and Wand and Scroll mastery. Those are the main key ones.

-weaps vs. wraps. I'd have to crunch numbers on this again... but last I check they were more or less comparable. That did assume you had a Holy ToD right though, wraps are definitely lower without that. But... a Stunned mob takes 50% more damage (not to mention sneak) which is definitely a bigger difference than any weapon choice.

Raw DPS will probably be higher with Scims, particularly pre ToD right. Possibly post ToD rings, but that will vary greatly depending on specific wraps, destinies, and so forth. Using them isn't a wrong answer. Its mainly a trade off between slightly better DPS and Stunning Fist. And once you have all the nifty gear (ToD right, epic brawlers, DR breaking wraps), I'm not so sure it is more damage.....

I'd probably play with weapons a bit if it weren't for that whole Stunning Fist thing. I'm addicted to it. If it ever gets nerfed (say, cooldown up to 15 secs like Stunning Blow), I'd probably switch over.

I could also see you easily not wanting the double monk thing. A light armored sword wielding melee Divine will definitely have a greater variance than a monk to a stunning fist using clonk. That doesn't bother me at all, but it might some.

-Triple Threat Divines. I'm not sure how doable this is honestly. I think it would work well, but only if you were willing to either A) give up on mobs with Spell Resistance or B) grind out three Wiz lives. Cometfall would be a decent CC that doesn't involve Spell Pen, but all the instakills do matter. You're basically down 2-3 feats from a true caster divine, which would likely be the Spell pen ones.

-THF feats vs. Twitching. Um... er.... yeah. You've been gimping your DPS. Glancing blows (in theory) don't trigger if you're moving, which during twitching you basically always are.

-Ponies..... um....

-Druids.... they have nuking, and the flameblades can work OK (only flame damage is a serious liability though at times), although I imagine you'd want to splash to fit in enough feats. But do they even have any Instakill? Implosion and Destruction are the main things you're shooting for with a casting Divine. For that matter... do they even have DoTs? Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier are huge, regardless of DCs.


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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Gildus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:01 pm

Iristindhe wrote:

If you really want to be both a caster and a melee character, perhaps I could interest you in some free cocaine the Druid class? It's not merely viable, it's actually awesome. Both Yhvain and Tienay have fairly similar builds, and it seems to work like a charm.

An element form "drunk" that used wraps would probably be a good build also. I've been thinking of something like 2 monk/1 wizard/17 druid: stance would give you as much wisdom as a capstone Druid (or semi-haste), and wizard 1 would give you access to (staking, or so I'm told) wizard spellpower enhancements, putting you in an overall better spellpower situation than the druid 20. You could even whip out flameblades from time to time when you want DPS more than stunning fist.

RE: Kal's Scimitar suggestion

I believe Kal was referring to a favored soul 20 using the "undying court" deity which gets bonuses with scimitars. Probably the best Melee FVS 20. A lot of people think it's WF: lord of blades diety fvs 20, but they're wrong... don't even get Kal started on that one Wink




Last edited by Gildus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Gildus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:06 pm

Kalener wrote:

-Druids.... they have nuking, and the flameblades can work OK (only flame damage is a serious liability though at times), although I imagine you'd want to splash to fit in enough feats. But do they even have any Instakill? Implosion and Destruction are the main things you're shooting for with a casting Divine. For that matter... do they even have DoTs? Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier are huge, regardless of DCs.


Dots: yes, greater creeping cold (same DPS as fully stacked nilac's), creeping cold (stacks with greater, 50% of the DPS). Freezing ice attack from water elle form increases that by 12.5%

Insta kill: Finger of death, lvl 8, no mass insta-kill

PAoE: fire wall, ice storm, storm of vengeance, spiked growth (I don't like it, but some people seem to), and you can melee in them or kite through to your liking.

CC: earthquake (basically a disco-ball that does some damage)

Flameblade: yeah it's useless against 1/4 of mobs from lvl 16+, but hey, you're still a max casting-score blue bar... you're hardly defenseless. I also keep a pair of envenomed blades around, I have iirc 24 dex (you need 15 to qualify for the 2wf feats), and the 2d6 light damage from crown of summer works on pretty much everything.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Kalener on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:47 pm

-Druids: seems like instakill is bad (FoD is particularly worse than others due to range), but its pretty good other than that. One note... is that DC based matters mostly for instakill & CC (not counting evasion mobs, but most aren't that dangerous) meaning a Wis dumped(ish) Druid has pretty close to the casting power of a full Wis Druid. That said, earthquake is better CC than anything a cleric can do.... and while BB has certain advantages over Ice Storm, its much simpler to use Ice Storm and the like, especially while grouped.

-Scims: yup, that's what I was referring to, although it doesn't have to be FvS. A cleric can get the prof as well with that Turn ability.


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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Gildus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:54 pm

Kalener wrote:-Druids: seems like instakill is bad (FoD is particularly worse than others due to range),

Are you thinking of slay living? Druids get finger of death, the wizard spell, it has a pretty good range.

And I would consider earthquake a pretty premiere spell for a druid. It's the difference between being group CC and not being. Also body of the sun is probably the most valuable damage spell and has (despite it's description) a fort save for half. Sure half isn't as bad as nothing (like insta and CC), but loosing half the DPS of your most valuable damage spell is hardly trivial.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Kalener on Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:25 pm

Gildus wrote:
Kalener wrote:-Druids: seems like instakill is bad (FoD is particularly worse than others due to range),

Are you thinking of slay living? Druids get finger of death, the wizard spell, it has a pretty good range.
Derp.... yup, I was thinking slay living. FoD and Destruction are pretty comparable (FoD does slightly more damage on a failed save).

So a Druid is missing Implosion, which is awesome but has a crazy cooldown, so not a huge loss.


And I would consider earthquake a pretty premiere spell for a druid. It's the difference between being group CC and not being. Also body of the sun is probably the most valuable damage spell and has (despite it's description) a fort save for half. Sure half isn't as bad as nothing (like insta and CC), but loosing half the DPS of your most valuable damage spell is hardly trivial.

Earthquake is great, and covers the type of CC that other divines are totally lacking (persistent, AoE).

And with the DC issue... I do realize that a Str based caster will often do half, and that is a big deal.... but they also have melee that should more than make up for that. If it can't, then you shouldn't build that class for melee. (For example, there used to be good melee Sorcerer "Tukaw" builds, but the PrE for Sorcs made them do way worse damage than a simple S20.)


Another rather key note though.... Druids don't have Mass Heal. One of the goals was to be a solid healer, and while healing can certainly be done without it (heck, some Bards do a hella job and they have much less than druids), a druid is definitely a lesser healer than either a cleric or FvS, regardless of build type.

So.. the druid stuff is interesting (especially to me, as I don't know that much about them yet), but a tad off topic. Not that that ever stops us.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:08 pm

Gildus wrote:wizard 1 would give you access to (staking, or so I'm told) wizard spellpower enhancements, putting you in an overall better spellpower situation than the druid 20.

Not for long it won't. This has been brought up on the main forums, and one of the Devs outright stated that those enhancements stacking is NOT WAI and will be "fixed".

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:18 pm

Also, while still off topic, it may be worth pointing out that fire immunity is a LOT less common in MotU content. There's a red dragon or two, and the occasional fire elemental, and... well, that's it really.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Iristindhe on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:21 pm

Kalener wrote:-Druids.... they have nuking, and the flameblades can work OK (only flame damage is a serious liability though at times), although I imagine you'd want to splash to fit in enough feats.

Nope! No need to splash, they get enough feats to cover all the bases.

Well, if you go human, anyway.

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Re: First life cleric build

Post by Gildus on Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:58 pm

Iristindhe wrote:
Gildus wrote:wizard 1 would give you access to (staking, or so I'm told) wizard spellpower enhancements, putting you in an overall better spellpower situation than the druid 20.

Not for long it won't. This has been brought up on the main forums, and one of the Devs outright stated that those enhancements stacking is NOT WAI and will be "fixed".

Ah, TY, good to know.

Also, while still off topic, it may be worth pointing out that fire immunity is a LOT less common in MotU content. There's a red dragon or two, and the occasional fire elemental, and... well, that's it really.

Well there's a fair number of demons also. It still a factor, but it's more like 10% of enemies rather than 30%+ from 16-20. The demon bosses aren't a big deal as you're better off cold doting them with a caster stick anyway. Fire ellies are no problem at all, one GCC and they're frozen ashes.

And Rawc doesn't mind that we completely jacked his thread Razz

Nope! No need to splash, they get enough feats to cover all the bases.

Well, if you go human, anyway.

Yeah, I don't feel that Yhvain is missing anything really important. You have basically the same feats as a non-human clonk who takes stunning fist. And I "had" to fit in wizard PL also Wink

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