Long awaited Enhancement Pass

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Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Kalener on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:36 am


It's a comin.....

http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancement_Alpha


Details will likely change, but the basic framework will probably still be there when it goes live.... Soon(tm)! (Probably 4-6 months...)

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Nukakola on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:25 pm

Huh. The spellsinger area for bard seems to have a lot of Virt stuff in it. Not a fan of the tree structure though, things like say wand and scroll mastery are essential to any casting class really.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:42 pm

Right now it's overall pretty underwhelming. It's 95% the same old stuff, just in a slightly more user friendly UI (not that the current system is really all that terrible...).

Caster Druids get some SLAs which will help a lot, but the melee druid tree doesn't get any spellpower. THey were already weak, with no spellpower they'll be awful.

Really hoping that human healing amp III gets changed so it doesn't cost 22 AP. That's going to really hurt Sabathiel, but looks like he'll probably be able to get more devotion, so hopefully it will even out.

Of course for me it really all depends on ever having time to play ddo again Smile

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Safyres on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:18 pm

Kal thanks for linking this Smile
We miss you Gildus !

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Kalener on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:13 pm

@Gildus.... The system was never really about drastic change. Forumites were clamoring for more PrEs, but Turbine was always more worried about just simplifying the interface.

To folks like you or me, who tinker under the hood of their toons, the old system seemed fine. We'd plan out what we wanted, and get it.

But more casual people often make toons with no plans at all. They'll just take at level up what seems a good idea at the time. With the old enhancement system, sometimes that means they could end up thinking they're grizzled old vets, yet not even realizing their PRE has another tier.....

It is hard for people like us, who can casually think our way through these types of things, to realize that We are the weirdos. More folks in the game just play than the few who really enjoy working on builds and number crunching. (Although that is probably less true in, for example, the subset of people who'll Pug EEs.)

While there are plenty of interesting things for us power gamers (I'm looking at you drastically different world of splashing), we're not the target audience of this change. We're just hoping they don't dumb it down too far and reduce the design space available. And I don't think they have, although it has definitely moved around some.

For example... most stock archtypes don't change much at all. A few (common splashes) may gain significantly. For example, it looks like centered monk splashes, like clonks, can pick up Shadow Fade for 25% incorp pretty easily. That's a huge boost in defenses on Kalener.

Raoull.... on the other hand, may get tore up. It seems the archtype of tanky/multipurpose handwrap toon will still be doable, but the details will change. Eh, he needs a TR anyway. All Emerald-style monks were really poking into the corners of PREs and splashes in the old system anyway, so they are bound to be substantially changed by anything like this. The old form is dead (and Raoull should really have a TR to get to a more idealized form even with the existing system), but the new system has plenty of fertile ground for something similar.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:07 pm

@Saf
Miss you guys too! Hopefully I'll be back at least a little bit in a week or two.

@Kal

Yeah, it's true that that the current system doesn't really make clear what you qualify for, and what you need to qualify for things. So I guess I can buy that it's a pretty important UI change for casual players (or anyone who's not into the technical parts of the game whether they're casual or not).

I'm still disappointed by the lack of new stuff though, but maybe there's a lot more to come.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Cybilond on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:44 pm

Wow, I had this epic post all written out and pressed send and found out my internet connection was down. Sad

Now I have to try and remember! Hmmm..... I think the new tree system will actually be good for the game in general - I know it cost me TP and Plat to "fix" Cybilond after I talked with a long gone guildie and he clued me in to how I had "messed-up" my toon through not having any idea of where I was going as I built him. I suspect that Turbine may be losing players just for the same reason - they get to a certain level and their toon just isn't "good" enough to survive the high level content. This change should make that less likely. It won't lead to a bunch of "super" toons - and I hope Turbine leaves a little room for playing with builds and trying new things.

I don;'t really want any "new" content right now - I want them to stabilize the existing stuff. It would be nice to run CiTW without a series of lag deaths - it would be nice to run ANY raid without lag spikes/deaths! And I think ED (lol - I still think Erectile Dysfunction when I see that) has cause a big change in the "TR" cycle for most players - I'm guessing that most players are trying to fill out all of the epic destinies on their toons before doing a TR. I was thinking that way for a while - Akalidin should have TRed months ago - and I finally decided that I wasn't going to do that. I think that Turbine should have limited the EDs to maybe two or 3 per "life". I think the way things are right now people are creating overpowered toons, twisting this in here and that in there, such that none of the content is THAT challanging. In any event, I think Turbine should have forced TRs to take place before adding too many EDs - maybe letting people take all of the EDs in the "circle" of their class - then forcing a TR into a really different class to capture a new set of EDs. Instead there are people out there NOW who have filled all of the epic destinies. I think it went too fast.

Then again, maybe I'm just a grumpy old fart!

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:35 pm

Now that I've looked at more of the trees and set-up, and thought about it more, I'm much more excited. The thing that's popped out at me is that now you apparently only need 5 class levels to access all the main parts of the tree. that's going to open up some wild new options, at least for melee builds.

For example Sabathiel really only needs 15 paladin levels for the for core abilities (2 lvl 4 spells for Zeal and Cure Serious). That means I could take up to 5 splash levels for levels for feats and abilities. For example 16/2 ftr/2 monk, or 15/4 ftr/1 wiz, or even 15/5 ftr for t5 fighter abilities.

Also pretty excited about the the new divine might that adds CHA bonus to STR, which will be great for my stunning blow.


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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Demogarose on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:51 am

Gildus wrote:Now that I've looked at more of the trees and set-up, and thought about it more, I'm much more excited. The thing that's popped out at me is that now you apparently only need 5 class levels to access all the main parts of the tree. that's going to open up some wild new options, at least for melee builds.

For example Sabathiel really only needs 15 paladin levels for the for core abilities (2 lvl 4 spells for Zeal and Cure Serious). That means I could take up to 5 splash levels for levels for feats and abilities. For example 16/2 ftr/2 monk, or 15/4 ftr/1 wiz, or even 15/5 ftr for t5 fighter abilities.

Also pretty excited about the the new divine might that adds CHA bonus to STR, which will be great for my stunning blow.


well yes, the Pass will be doing some great things for multiclassing.

but the flipside of that is basically killing pure builds.

for those that actually enjoy pure classing, this is a Bad Thing™

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Kalener on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:49 am

Eh... I don't think pureclassing is worse off, at least any differently than it is now.

The problem is lousy capstones. Currently there are some lousy ones, and in the new system... well, there are some lousy ones.

Consider Paladin. Tons of people already multiclass paladin rather than getting the capstone. One of the two available capstones is strictly better than the current one, and the other one is pretty cool, although its effectiveness I'm not sure of yet.

Or Rangers. Melee Rangers used to have no reason to get to R20 in the current system, but now they have an awesome capstone. (Oddly awesome... better than fighters who have a pretty decent one....)

Many of the others are good too, and most every class at least has the option of their old capstone, often slightly enhanced.

I do think some are bad, in particular most anything that involves a clicky that isn't on all the time.

There is only one factor right now that considerably encourages multiclassing, and it is the inability to take 3 trees in some pure class builds. Originally they said they'd debut with 3 class tries per class.... but they've switched that down to 2, with the other coming Soon(tm). I bet in practice this will be less of an issue than people think. Even with 2 class trees (assuming one doesn't suck.... cleric/FvS) you have 3 trees due to the racial one. I think people eyeball them and think all the cool abilities they'll have, except you can't spend that many points. That 4th tree will probably need to be pretty neglected, unless there is a solid tier or something.

What they did do, is kill the idea of 20, 18/2, or 12/6/2 builds as ideal. So the breadth of multiclassing space has grown substantially. However, there will probably end up with new ideal numbers, yet they'll be different to each particular build rather than most all mutliclass builds ending up into the same slotting.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:32 pm

Yeah, I've heard about the demise of pure class builds on the main forums also, but overall I agree with Kal.

First, every caster build has plenty of incentive to go pure regardless of capstones (for spell pen and spell slots), so that's almost half of builds right there. Then there are some really solid capstones, like rogue, monk, and fighter. Those are probably the most balanced classes really, as there are good incentives both ways.

Hopefully more classes will be added to this category with the pass, and eyeballing them that looks to be the case. For example tempest is 25% offhand double-strike, that's a huge incentive to stay pure for a type of build that used to have almost no reason to do so.

I think folks might be mistaking pure class builds with being weak, which I don't think they really are, with being comparatively boring from a build perspective (they'll still be plenty fun to play), which they kind of are.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:11 pm

Kalener wrote:

There is only one factor right now that considerably encourages multiclassing, and it is the inability to take 3 trees in some pure class builds. Originally they said they'd debut with 3 class tries per class.... but they've switched that down to 2, with the other coming Soon(tm). I bet in practice this will be less of an issue than people think. Even with 2 class trees (assuming one doesn't suck.... cleric/FvS) you have 3 trees due to the racial one. I think people eyeball them and think all the cool abilities they'll have, except you can't spend that many points. That 4th tree will probably need to be pretty neglected, unless there is a solid tier or something.
Also AFAIK (though I could have easily missed something), they're still planning on implementing the racial PrE thing (like AA for elf/helf), they just didn't get to it in this in this preview round. That will be another great way to give some interesting, and potentially powerful, options for pure builds.

What they did do, is kill the idea of 20, 18/2, or 12/6/2 builds as ideal. So the breadth of multiclassing space has grown substantially. However, there will probably end up with new ideal numbers, yet they'll be different to each particular build rather than most all mutliclass builds ending up into the same slotting.
Indeed

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Nukakola on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:10 pm

I'm just worried that they are going to keep the limit to 3 trees they discussed ages ago. That would break a ton of potentially interesting builds etc. Every bard is obligated to go at least to wand and scroll mastery in the spell tree for sure. Stuff like that could be rather limiting.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Gildus on Wed May 01, 2013 12:14 am

I haven't been able to get on Lama, but my understanding is it's three class trees plus your racial tree. That doesn't seem too bad, you take the two bard trees then you take either the barbarian or fighter tree for the third.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Nukakola on Wed May 01, 2013 8:29 pm

Unfortunately that's my exact issue....judging from the preview I currently have items in at least 5 trees plus racial.

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Re: Long awaited Enhancement Pass

Post by Kalener on Thu May 02, 2013 8:57 am

Yeah... for some splits that can be an issue.

I've seen one suggestion that could fix that right up... having some "core" class abilities show up in multiple trees. You'd have to have them lock out so pures wouldn't get triple the bonus, but I'm sure that is doable.

But.... there seems to be enough bones tossed to multis in the new system that I don't see this as necessary. Yes, some splits will suffer, but that is the case regardless of this one issue. Considering there is already a view that the new system encourages multis due to lousy capstones, I doubt they'd want to create something explicitly for them.

Or... maybe I'm just saying that because for all practical purposes clerics only have one tree..... (Although this issue will definitely affect Raoull.)

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